Jeff Roundy, Author at Latter-day Saints Q & A

August 28, 2019 By Jeff Roundy 2 Comments

Science and Religion- Seeing With Both Eyes

This video addresses President Nelson’s quote, “There is no conflict between science and religion. Conflict only arises from an incomplete knowledge of either science or religion, or both.” Also discussed are four First Presidency statements on evolution that show a progression in interpretation, allowing for much more freedom of thought than many church members realize.

On this video we’re going to be talking about science and religion, if you have to make a choice. The short answer is no, you do not, and I do want to show and make sure it’s clear what the Church’s position is on this. There’s a lot of confusion on this topic, and many people present their opinion as though it’s the view of the Church. I want to make sure it’s clear what the Church’s views are. Joseph Smith said, “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.”

Let me show you a couple of graphs here. First of all, this was a study done in 2009 on evolution and the opinions of evolution throughout the United States by religious affiliation. If you look at this graph, you can see the line in the middle is the total U.S. population. It’s about 50/50 believing in evolution. If you look at the Latter-day Saints, we’re towards the bottom. 22%. Jehovah’s Witnesses just the only ones below us on there.

I want to contrast that with this next graph, which is a longitudinal study that was done with BYU students that were non-science majors back in 1987 to 1996 compared to 2014 to 2016 on evolution. If you look on the far right, if you look at acceptance on there, it is now to almost 40%. It used to be at about 12, 13%, so it’s more than tripled over that time. You’ll see one interesting issue here is that there seems to be a clash in between the young people versus the overall body of the Church, at only 22%, you can see statistically there’s a wide chasm and division in maybe the approach here to this topic.

One of the things … I’d like to share a few quotes and then share with you what’s called the BYU Packet and the First Presidency statements on this topic. But first, I wanted to start with a couple of quick quotes. Henry Eyring, the famous scientist, said, “Is there any conflict between science and religion? There is no conflict in the mind of God, but often there is conflict in the minds of men.”

He also said, at another time, “There are a few ways in which good people do more harm to those who take them seriously than to defend the gospel with arguments that won’t hold water. Many of the difficulties encountered by young people going to college would be avoided if parents and teachers were more careful to distinguish between what they know to be true and what they think may be true. Impetuous youth upon finding the authority and trust crumbling, even on unimportant details, is apt to lump everything together and throw the baby out with the bath.”

And lastly, Elder Dallin H. Oaks and his book, Life Lessons Learned, said, “Some try to deal with apparent conflicts by compartmentalizing science and religion, one-in-one category, such as Monday through Saturday, and the other in another category, such as Sunday. That was my initial approach, but I came to learn it’s inadequacy. We are supposed to learn by both reason and revelation, and that does not happen when we compartmentalize science and religion. Our searchings should be disciplined by human reason and also enlightened by divine revelation. In the end, truth has only one content and one source, and it encompasses both science and religion.”

Now, this BYU Packet I mentioned, there was a big controversy in the early nineties between the science department and the religion department on the topic of evolution. Just so you know, BYU is one of the leaders in evolutionary studies, specifically now even DNA for evolution, dinosaur fossils, some of the key areas leading in certain areas of the nation. But going back to this 1992 pack… The compromise was essentially to get together and submit a bunch of material to the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve for them to sift through and come up with a BYU Packet that would be given to students to help them with this topic.

What ended up coming out of this packet are just four statements, and they were all First Presidency statements. They’re 1909, 1910, 1925 and 1931 which were really minutes from a meeting that were then produced with President Hinckley’s help in the 1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism. That’s kind of the key one. That was the final one there.

So, the 1909 one was the only one that had something that was anti-science, anti-evolution. Here’s this two sentences that said, “It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this Earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of man. The word of the Lord declares that Adam was the first man of all men, and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race.”

Well, the very next year, this caused quite a stir. It was addressed in various ways, but the very next year, the First Presidency put out another statement addressing all of the contention that was arising from this. You got to remember there were some famous scientists in the Church, too. John A. Widtsoe. We also had James E. Talmage. You had B.H. Roberts, who was very well-spoken on these topics, also.

So, 1910, “Diversity of opinion does not necessitate intolerance of spirit, nor should it embitter or set rational beings against each other. Christ taught kindness, patience and charity. Our religion is not hostile to real science. That which is demonstrated, we accept with joy.”

Now, the 1925 statement that came out actually was the 1909 statement, but it removed all the anti-science, anti-evolution statements. Those were completely removed. Then, the key piece that happened was in 1931. This was a result out of a debate that happened from a talk that was given by Joseph Fielding Smith in Conference where he talked about no death before the Fall and no pre-Adamites.

B.H. Roberts and him came in, and they essentially had a debate in front of the First Presidency and the Twelve after which those minutes that came out were part of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism that President Hinckley helped to put together in 1992. This is really the final statement on this, and you can see this one became very critical in addressing these in the Church’s position. So, here’s the statement.

“The position of the Church on the origin of man was published by the First Presidency in 1909 and stated again by a different First Presidency in 1925. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, basing its belief on divine revelation, ancient and modern, declares man to be the direct and lineal offspring of Deity. Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes. The scriptures tell why man was created, but they do not tell how, though the Lord has promised that he will tell that when he comes again.”

“In 1931, when there was intense discussion on the issues of organic evolution, the First Presidency of the Church addressed all the general authorities on this matter and concluded, ‘Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church, we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church. Upon one thing, we should all be able to agree, namely, that Adam is the primal parent of our race.'”

And then, in an interview with President Hinckley, he actually stated, “What the Church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race. Scientists can speculate on the rest.” So, if you are a full believer in evolution, even the evolution of man, you are absolutely fine. You’re not going against any Church doctrine. The view of the Church is this, and that can fit within this.

If somebody has that view, please don’t make them feel bad or say, “That’s not the view of the Church.” Now, some of the confusion comes from some of these statements that were made by leaders of the Church over the years, and I did do a video on What is Doctrine, and that would be a great thing to review for this topic.

I will read one quote released by the Church in 2007 under the title Approaching Mormon Doctrine. This is in the Mormon Newsroom. This is the part of that. “Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.”

There are a lot of people that grew up in the Church from the thirties to the eighties, nineties that heard a lot of things from some of these Church leaders. One of the big ones was Joseph Fielding Smith that wrote Man, His Origin and Destiny. This book was addressed by David O. McKay when he was the prophet. Many times to many different letters, and in fact, he was frustrated that this was widely read and thought by many to represent the Church’s official view.

President McKay personally accepted evolution and called it beautiful. He addressed … Here’s an example of a letter he wrote somebody asking about this. He says, “On the subject of organic evolution, the Church has officially taken no position. The book Man, His Origin and Destiny was not published by the Church and is not approved by the Church. The book contains expressions of the author’s views for which he alone is responsible.

Similar things happened with Bruce R. McConkie with the book Mormon Doctrine, with his talk at BYU, The Seven Deadly Heresies. In fact, when that talk was published, it was different from the verbal version and the part about evolution. There was a sentence added that said, “These are questions to which all of us should find answers. Every person must choose for himself what he will believe.”

Then, the last example, Boyd K. Packer gave a talk at BYU, The Law and the Light, in 1988 in which he had an anti-evolutionary message. However, the talk, when it was published in 1990, was immediately proceeded by a sharply-worded disclaimer, which I don’t think has happened before with a BYU speech, but this said, “The author alone is responsible for the views set forth therein. They do not necessarily represent the Church.”

So, to conclude with a few last things here, Henry Eyring … The Church actually asked him to go around and speak to many different groups. This is the Henry Eyring, not President Eyring but his father, the scientist. So, this is the scientist. In 1955, a report to the First Presidency that he gave. I love this quote. He says, “My conception of the gospel is that the scriptures record the dealings of God with His prophets and His people. By living in accordance with their teachings, we may expect to reach the Celestial Kingdom. To be understood, the Lord must reveal Himself in a language His children can understand.”

“Of necessity, many things not necessary for their immediate progress are omitted, to be revealed later and to be discovered by man’s own enterprise. There are some people who throw away the scriptures and restrict themselves to science and related fields. Others use the scriptures to the exclusion of other truth. Both are wrong. Latter-day Saints should seek after truth by all avenues with earnest humility. There is, of course, no conflict in the gospel since it embraces all truth. Undoubtedly, however, science is continually challenging us to think through again our conceptions of the gospel. This should work both ways, of course.”

I love the scripture in D&C 101 because if anyone says they think they’ve got it figured out, and science certainly tells us maybe which way to bet on some of these things and the probability analysis. You can look at it that way. But when you read D&C 101, you can certainly say that nobody knows for sure, and we won’t know until the Second Coming.

It says, “Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, He shall reveal all things– Things which have passed and hidden things which no man knew; things of the earth by which it was made, and the purpose the end thereof.”

You might say, “Well, why even study?” We’re taught to study out of the best books. D&C 88 says, “Teach diligently and be instructed more perfectly in theory and principle. Study things both in the heaven, the earth, under the earth.”

So, we’re told to to study these things, but I have to … This is one of my favorite quotes. Probably one of the wisest stances. Harold B. Lee. He said, “Perhaps if we had the full story of the creation of the earth and man told to us in great detail, it would be more of a mystery than the simple few statements that we have contained in the Bible because of our lack of ability to comprehend. Therefore, for reasons best known to the Lord, He has kept us in darkness. Wait until the Lord speaks, or wait until that day when he shall come and when we shall be among the privileged either to come up out of our graves and be caught up into the clouds of heaven or shall be living upon the earth likewise to be so translated before Him.”

“Then, we shall know all things pertaining to this Earth, how it was made and all things that now as children we are groping for and trying to understand. Let’s reserve judgment as to the facts concerning the Creation until we know these things for sure.”

To finish, I just wanted to tell you of an excellent resource, a website called sciencemeetsreligion.org. It’s run by David Bailey. He’s an LDS scientist, and it’s a fantastic resource, a tremendous amount of detail.

He does talk about the history of evolution in the Church and the thinking on it and talks about our present situation. It’s interesting to note, he said, that under the study by topics, there’s 232 topics there. One of them used to be called The Origin of Man, and in 2009, that was removed, and it did have a link in the past to the 1909 statement. It’s actually been removed from the website. He says, also, there’s a pro-science interview that’s in a prominent spot on lds.org with the scientist John Lewis of MIT, and I’ve watched it. It’s a fantastic video. I’ll link to it in the resources.

“He compares science and religion to the differing images seen by the left and right eyes, yet when they are combined, they result in three-dimensional vision.” That’s beautiful, and I hope you liked this video. That’s it for this time.

Resources:

Websites:

Science meets religion – amazing website with a significant number of links: sciencemeetsreligion.org

Latter-day Saints’ specific section of sciencemeetsrelgion.org: http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/

FairMormon links – Mormonism and Science: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mo…

FairMormon links – statements made by Church leaders on evolution https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Pr…

Articles:

New Era Article – July 2016: Science and Our Search for Truth https://www.lds.org/new-era/2016/07/s…

Podcasts:

LDS Perspectives Episode 50 – A Religion of Both Prayers and Pterodactyls – Steven Peck http://www.ldsperspectives.com/2017/0…

BYU Maxwell Institute Podcast with Terryl Givens and Steven Peck – The God Who Marvels: https://mi.byu.edu/mic-peck/

Videos:

Steven L. Peck on “Why Evolution and LDS Thought are Fully Compatible: Overcoming our Suspicions of Science” given at the Science & Mormonism: Cosmos, Earth, & Man conference held on November 9, 2013, in Provo, Utah https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_co…

Reconciling Science and Religion: A Mormon Bishop’s Perspective on Evolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNEyy…

David H. Bailey on “Science vs. Religion: Can This Marriage Be Saved?” given at the Science & Mormonism: Cosmos, Earth, & Man conference held on November 9, 2013, in Provo, Utah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srEha…

Books:

Henry Eyring- Faith of a Scientist, Reflections of a Scientist, Mormon Scientist (biography written by grandson)

Where Science Meets God – 12 Ways Science Reinforces LDS Doctrine by Scott Frazer

Science – The Key to Theology by Steven Peck

Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought With LDS Theology by David Leigh Clark

Truth and Science: An LDS Perspective by Dave Collingridge

Latter-day Saints’ Q&A is a video series not produced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but by me, an ordinary member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, an independent voice, with a passion for studying Church history and defending the faith. In this series, I provide evidences for the restoration, and address tough questions posed by critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, offering faithful answers based on accurate research and historical references which will be posted at the end of each video.

August 28, 2019 By Jeff Roundy Leave a Comment

Who Can Be Saved? Solving the Christian Dilemma- Evidences

This video reconciles the Christian dilemma that arises from believing in a just God while also believing New Testament verses that require acceptance of Christ and baptism to enter Heaven. What of those that never had a chance to learn of Christ or be baptized? This dilemma is resolved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints through proxy baptisms performed on behalf of the deceased, who will be taught the gospel in the after life and then be able to choose whether or not to accept Christ and the proxy baptism performed on their behalf. The video shares 1 Corinthians 15:29, and quotes from early Christian fathers showing that proxy baptism was practiced in the early Christian church, discusses why it was banned in 397 A.D., and explains that no other major Christian Religion has practiced it since, other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Okay. So for this video in the Evidences series, I wanted to talk about baptisms for the dead and how it is an evidence of the restoration of the original Christian church, how it was practiced in the original Christian church, and talk a little bit about how it solves the Christian dilemma.

So let’s start with that. First of all, if you look on the screen there are a bunch of scriptures I wanted to share, just quick little snippets all from the New Testament on how salvation is through Christ only. If you look here: “He shall save his people from their sins.” “My Spirit hath rejoiced in God, my Savior.” “Born in the city of David, a Savior, which is Christ.” “World through him might be saved.” “This is indeed the Christ, the Savior.” “Whosoever shall call on the Lord shall be saved.” “None other name whereby we may be saved.” “Him hath God exalted to be a prince and a Savior.” “God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer.” “Shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.” “We have redemption through his blood.” “Believe on the Lord, thou shalt be saved.” “We shall be saved by his life.”

So from these verses, it’s clear that it’s only through Jesus Christ that we are able to achieve salvation through His grace and through His sacrifice for us. So the Christian dilemma is what of those who do not hear of Jesus Christ? And I’ll give you an example. If you go to a website called gotquestions.org, it’s a nondenominational group that try to answer biblical questions. In fact, if you look at their mission statement and who they are, it says that they’re, “A ministry of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, scripture, salvation and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and nondenominational. All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff.”

So if you were to type in the question, “What happens to those that never hear about Jesus?” This is the answer that you’ll get. And this is it’s … There’s a detailed description, but this is the summary at the end, “If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?” So that tells you the struggle that many have in trying to answer this question.

The other issue is baptism. And here, if you look up in the Latter-Day Saint scripture topical guide, Baptism Essential, here are some scriptures all from the New Testament again. Jesus coming to John for baptism, “Suffer it to be so now to fulfill all righteousness.” “Teach all nations, baptizing them.” “Jesus came and was baptized of John.” “He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved.” “Reject the counsel of God being not baptized.” And I love this one to Nicodemus, Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” “Repent and be baptized every one of you.” “Command them to be baptized.” “Be baptized and wash away thy sins.” “One Lord, one faith, one baptism”. “Save us by the washing of regeneration.” “Baptism doth also now save us.”

And we understand that Christ, after He was crucified and was resurrected, that He went and preached to the suffering spirits in prison. It says here in 1 Peter 3:18-19, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.” 1 Peter 4:6 says, “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” So they were able to hear the message of Jesus Christ even after death.

Now, what about baptism, this critical ordinance that was necessary for salvation according to Jesus Christ? Well, 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul says, “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” Now this is a very confusing verse for Christian churches to understand or interpret and some have thought, well, maybe Paul was announcing or condemning the practice. I’ll share a snippet here about Paul from Robert Millet, a professor of ancient scripture at BYU. This was an article in the Ensign. He says about this verse, he says, “Paul was most sensitive to blasphemy and false ceremonialism. Of all people, he would not have argued for the foundation truth of the Resurrection with a questionable example. He obviously did not feel that the principle was disharmonious with the gospel.”

Then to give you an example of a biblical commentary here, here’s the Jerome Biblical commentary, The First Letters to the Corinthians by Richard Kugelman. He says here on this verse, “Paul alludes to a practice of the Corinthian community as evidence for Christian faith in the resurrection of the dead. It seems that in Corinth, some Christians would undergo baptism in the name of their deceased non-Christian relatives and friends hoping that this vicarious baptism might assure them a share in the redemption of Christ.” So very clear there. That’s what it’s talking about.

And in fact, if you look at modern day translations, they’ve even become more intense in the clarification of this. Here’s a quote of that from the New English Bible, “Again, there are those who receive baptism on behalf of the dead. Why should they do this? If the dead are not raised at all, what do they mean by being baptized on their behalf?”

Okay, so a couple of quick snippets from early Christian fathers. The Shepherd of Hermas was a Christian literary work of the late first or mid-second century and it was considered a valuable book by many Christians and considered canonical scripture by some of the early Christian fathers such as Irenaeus. “These apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, having fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to those who had fallen asleep before them and themselves gave to them the seal of the preaching. They went down therefore with them into the water and came up again, but the latter went down alive and came up alive, while the former, who had fallen asleep before, were dead, went down dead, but came up alive. Through them, therefore, they were made alive and received knowledge on the name of the Son of God.”

Then Clement of Alexandria, who lived from 150 to 215 A.D., he also even referenced maybe why this was done as proxy. He said, “They went down therefore into the water and again ascended, but those who had fallen asleep descended dead, but ascended alive. Then too, the more subtle substance, the soul, [what you’d call the spirit], could never receive injury from the grosser element of water.” This practice then ended up becoming banned at the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D.

It was viewed as those that were practicing it as heretics and gnostics and it was banned from practice and therefore there are no major Christian religions practicing this today, but it was restored in 1840 by the prophet Joseph Smith, and it is one of those things, the very last verses in the Old Testament say that before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, Elijah would come and he would turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers. I’ll talk about that in another video about Elijah did come. This is part of this, through this practice of baptisms for the dead, that children turned to the fathers, and the fathers looked to the children to do this.

That’s this video. Subscribe for more content.

Resources:

Articles:

Article on Baptism for the Dead in Early Christianity in the Aug 1987 Ensign by Robert Millet: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/08/i-…

Baptisms for the Dead in Early Christianity – an extensive article published by the BYU Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship: https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publi…

Multiple Q&A on Baptism for the Dead – Fairmormon website: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mo…

August 28, 2019 By Jeff Roundy Leave a Comment

David Whitmer- An Irrefutable Witness- Evidences

Richard Lloyd Anderson said in his book Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses: “No witnesses is more compelling than David Whitmer.” This video discusses the life of David Whitmer before and after he left the church and explains why he is an irrefutable witness.

Okay. On this Evidences video I wanted to talk about David Whitmer. I personally feel like he’s the most compelling of any of the witnesses in the Restoration for multiple reasons we’ll talk about today. I wanted to start with a great quote out of this book, Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses. This is one of the seminal books that’s done, I think, really on the Book of Mormon witnesses, the eight witnesses and the three witnesses, but he talks about David Whitmer.

Let me share this quote. “Impeccable in reputation, consistent in scores of recorded interviews, obviously sincere and personally capable of detecting illusion, no witness is more compelling than David Whitmer. He answered every objection thrown at him in a half century of life in Richmond, Missouri, and by sheer moral strength forced a non-Mormon community to take him seriously. Through the miracle of modern communication, his testimony now transcends a community and confronts a world.”

Here’s Joe Johnson in the Missouri Plattsburg Democrat newspaper. He wrote, “Skeptics may laugh and scoff if they will, but no man can listen to Mr. Whitmer as he talks in his interview with the angel of the Lord, without being most forcibly convinced that he has heard an honest man tell what he honestly believes to be true.” Now, some of the compelling things that I, when I think of David Whitmer, the eight witnesses today, in fact some even non-Latter Day Saint scholars feel like Joseph Smith had to have had some type of plates.

The evidence is so compelling, but the three witnesses saw the angel of the Lord. They saw more than the plates. They heard the voice of God, extremely compelling witness. All three of them left the church. Two of them came back, Oliver and Martin, but David did not. He was out of the church for 50 years. He fell away out of the Kirtland Safety Society, the Kirtland crisis, I’ve talked about that in another video, but for 50 years out of the Church, he never wavered from his testimony. He was threatened at gunpoint at one time for his testimony. I’ll share that briefly.

He was the last of the remaining witnesses for 13 years. He was the most interviewed. He had the most recorded statements, 70 different statements. Martin Harris was 50, Oliver Cowdery around 30. Citizens viewed him as very intelligent, hardworking, very, very honest. He served multiple terms as the city councilman in his city. In fact, he was the mayor of Richmond, Missouri. He owned and operated a successful business. He had stubborn integrity, as some called it. He pushed back on anyone poking holes in his testimony there. Those are some of the reasons why I view him as really the most compelling witness.

Now you know the statement of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon at the beginning of the Book of Mormon. I want to share some of the recorded statements where Dave Whitmer elaborated on different elements that I think are interesting. If you look here, he says it was, and these are just little snippets from recorded interviews. “It was in June, 1829 the very last part of the month. It was about 11:00 AM in an open pasture, woods nearby, knelt in prayer, got up and sat on a log and were talking when all once a light came down from above us and encircles us for quite a little distance around, and the angel stood before us.

He was dressed in white and spoke and called me by name. When we were overshadowed by a light, it was not like the light of the sun nor like that of fire, but more glorious and beautiful.” Now here’s some detail. “In the midst of the light, two or three feet away, there appeared as it were, a table with many records on it. Besides the plates of the Book of Mormon, also the sword of Laban, the directors, which would be the Liahona, and the interpreters. I saw them as plain as I see this bed, striking his hand upon the bed beside him, and I heard the voice of the Lord as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life, declaring that they were translated by the gift and power of God.”

Another statement, “All of a sudden I beheld a dazzlingly brilliant light that surpassed in brightness even the sun at noonday, and which seemed to envelop the woods for a considerable distance around. Simultaneous with the light came a strange entrancing influence, which permeated me so powerfully that I felt chained to the spot, while I also experienced the sensation of joy, absolutely indescribable. The angel stood before us and he turned the leaves one by one. He held the plates and turned them over with his hands so that they could be plainly visible.

They appeared to be of gold, about six by nine inches in size, about as thick as parchment, a great many in number, and bound together like the leaves of a book by massive rings passing through the back edges. The engraving upon them was very plain and a very curious appearance.” Just some interesting tidbits there. Again, Richard Lloyd Anderson, really he is the one that has dug into the witnesses in detail more than anybody else. In his book he talks about again, David Whitmer, the consistency of his reports and the reliability of the source created a trustworthiness in him.

He says, “What about self-interest? Can the distorting force of self-interest be detected? His plain courage in ignoring self-interest in the matter of his testimony was the source of admiration earned from community leaders in Richmond, Missouri. Neither unpopularity, danger, nor tedious inconvenience altered his express convictions. The story about him being at gunpoint was actually, he was tarred and feathered in 1833 in Jackson County, Missouri and was held a gunpoint by a mob and asked him to deny his testimony of the Book of Mormon and he held up his hand and testified of the Book of Mormon, and it actually created a fear in the mob and they left.

He told James Hart recorded this from David Whitmer, “The testimony I gave to that mob made them fear and tremble, and I escaped from them. One gentleman, a doctor and unbeliever, told me afterwards that the bold and fearless testimony born on that occasion, and the fear that seemed to take hold of the mob had made him a believer in the Book of Mormon.” Another one, his grandson, George W. Sweich, who also served as a private secretary for Whitmer, so he heard many of the testimonies and written letters on the subject. Here’s his personal appraisal.

“I have begged him to unfold the fraud in the case, and he had all to gain and nothing to lose, but speak the word if he thought so. But he has described the scene to me many times, of his vision about noon in an open pasture.” James Moyle, 1885, cross-examined Whitmer and recounted the sacrifices and persecutions of his family due to their belief and appealed to Whitmer’s closeness to death while Moyle was just starting his legal career. Quote, “And so I begged of him not to let me go through life believing in a vital falsehood. Was there any possibility that he might have been deceived in any particular?”

All of his life Moyle remembered the unequivocal affirmation of the testimony. He later recorded quote, “To have been insincere seems impossible, would have made him a hideous, soulless, mental deformity.” Then somebody was trying to poke a hole, talking about a spiritual vision versus a physical experience, and then this was Anthony Metcalfe, Dave Whitmer’s reply, “Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also and everything was as natural to us as it is at any time.” In fact , John Murphy raised the issue suggesting mesmerism and possible delusion.

“Whitmer was so upset, he went to the trouble and expense of publishing his quote, ‘proclamation’, repeating his testimony and emphasizing confidence in his own powers of observation. Quote, ‘He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear. It was no delusion.'” The strongest example, 1884, skeptical Richmond military officers suggesting possible hallucination. Joseph Smith III was there visiting, and he recorded quote, “How well and distinctly I remember the manner in which Elder Whitmer arose and drew himself up to his full height, a little over six feet, and said in solemn and impressive tones, ‘No sir! I was not under any hallucination, nor was I deceived. I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears! I know where of I speak!'”

Now just to clarify, almost all the statements I just shared were after David Whitmer was out of the Church. He was out of the church for 50 years. The story about him being at gunpoint, that was when he was in the Church in 1833, but he was out of the Church from 1838 to 1888/1887, so almost 50 years out of the Church. That’s where most of the vast majority of all the things that I just shared came from. I hope you found this enjoyable. Subscribe for more content. Thanks.

Resources:

Articles:

Fairmormon Q&A on David Whitmer: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Da…

Wikipedia article on David Whitmer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W…

Books:

Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses by Richard Lloyd Anderson

Opening the Heavens – Accounts of Divine Manifestations: 1820-1844 by John Welch

August 28, 2019 By Jeff Roundy 15 Comments

Becoming Like God – History & Meaning

This video discusses the doctrine in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church or LDS Church) of becoming like God. History of the belief in this doctrine (known as deification) from early biblical scriptures, the early Christian Church and up to even modern-day are covered, which can then lead to the question why are Latter-day Saints persecuted for belief in this doctrine – the focus of the second half of the video.

So, in this video I want to talk about the doctrine of deification or becoming like God, what the history of it is and the meaning and some of the challenges that we face as Latter-day Saints in this doctrine. I want to give some historical background from the scriptures, from the early Christian Church, the Church Fathers, even now, many still believe in this doctrine, and so why we have many challenges with this as Latter-day Saints from our fellow Christians or from others of different faiths.

First of all, if you look at this page here, the biblical scriptures discussing deification, both the Old and the New Testament, tremendous number of scriptures. And I want to share a couple of my favorites from here. If you look at this next page, Psalms 82:6, “I have said to your gods and all of your children of the most high.” John 10:34-36, “Jesus answered them. Is it not written in your law? I said, ye are gods.” Romans 8:16 and 17, “And if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” Galatians 4:7, “And if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” Revelations 3:21, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am sat down with my Father in his throne.” And then Revelations 21:7, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”

And if we look at some of the early Christian Fathers, who believed in deification. Saint Irenaeus in second century, “Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods?”

Saint Clement of Alexandria, second century, “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods and gods are men.'” Saint Justin Martyr, second century, “In the beginning, men were made like God and that they are deemed thus worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Saint Athanasius in the fourth century, “The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh and henceforth inherit everlasting life. He became man that we might be made divine.” And then Saint Augustine, considered by many the greatest of the Christian Fathers said, “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God, for he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”

Now, if you think about it, these are not just Christians. They’re not just Orthodox Christians. They’re Orthodox Christian Saints, canonized saints, and three of them lived within a hundred years of the apostles, and all five of them believe in deification. This was a part of historical Christianity until relatively recent times and still is an important doctrine in some of the eastern Orthodox churches. In fact, here’s the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology. “Deification, or Greek theosis, is for Orthodoxy the goal and every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.”

Then even amongst some conservative Protestants, the doctrine of deification is still occasionally found. Here’s a couple of examples. Paul Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network. “I am a little god. I have His name. I am one with Him. I’m in a covenant relation. I am a little god. Critics be gone.” Kenneth Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries, “You don’t have a god in you. You are one.” And then the famous C.S. Lewis, the famous Christian writer who died in 1963, he was a member of the Church of England. Some famous quotes from him, “It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest the most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature, which if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship.”

“Christ came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men, the kind of life he has by what I call good infection. Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God.” And lastly, “He said, in the Bible, that we were gods, and he is going to make good his words if we let Him, for we can prevent him if we choose. He will make the feeblest and filthy of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly, though of course on a smaller scale, His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful, but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said.”

Now in the book by Stephen Robinson, Are Mormons Christians?, He has a chapter on this topic and he says, “Actually, the real objection in modern Christian churches to the doctrine of deification is often that it implies the existence of more than one God. If human beings can become gods and yet remained distinct being separate from God, it makes for a universe of many gods. Surely C.S. Lewis realized this implication, so did the early Christian Saints. Yet like the Latter-day Saints, they did not understand this implication to constitute genuine polytheism.”

Let me actually share two lines from the Gospel Topics Essay that was written on becoming like God, that you can find on lds.org. It says, “Latter-day Saints believe that God’s children will always worship Him. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God.”

And back to the book by Stephen Robinson. He says, “So let’s be clear on what Latter-day Saints do not believe. They do not believe that humans will ever be equal to or independent of God. His status or relation to us is not in any way compromised.” He says, “That even as we would sit on thrones, exercising the power of gods, those who have become gods by grace remain eternally subordinate to the source of that grace. They are extensions of their Father’s power and agents of His will. They will continue to worship and serve the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost forever, and will worship and serve no one and nothing else. If the Latter-day Saints had chosen to refer to such glorified beings as ‘angels’ instead of ‘gods’, it is unlikely anyone outside the LDS church would have objected to the doctrine per se. It seems that it is only the term that is objectionable. And yet the scriptures themselves often use the word god in this limited sense.”

Now, there is a great podcast on this topic that I’ll link in the program resources. In the LDS Perspectives Podcast, episode 63, an interview with Terryl Givens on becoming like God. I just was fascinated by this snippet here. Nick Galletti’s interviewing him and in this interview he talks about what Terryl Givens shares this story.

He says, “Years ago I had a colleague at the University of Richmond who just at the mention of the word ‘Mormonism’ would get hives. He was so hostile to the church and its theology. One day I pressed him to tell me what his real grievance against the church was. He said, ‘Okay, I’ll tell you. Do you really think a million years from now you’ll be creating worlds and peopling them with your own posterity?’ I said, ‘I’ll answer that question if you answer one first. What are you going to be doing a million years from now?’ He said, with great confidence, ‘Growing in the grace of Christ.’ I said, ‘No, no, no. That’s not fair. July 12th, four o’clock in the afternoon, one million years from today, I knock on your door. What will I find you doing?’ He thought a moment and all the air went out of his sails and he said, ‘I see your point. Anything I could say would sound absurd.'”

“I feel like I’ve discovered in the course of my study at the anti-Mormons of the last century and more the danger of heresy is not a particular belief, it’s the particularity of the belief. It’s not what it is that Mormons believe. It’s the specificity with which they make these claims. Mormons tend to be very specific, right?.”

“Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang in their book Heaven: A History, for example, have written that Mormons have a more fleshed out, detailed version of heaven than any other Christian tradition. Really all they mean by that is that Mormons populate it with humans and relationships and domestic kinds of interactions and many of the early saints, Parley Pratt and others, were quite convinced that we’ll have homes, gardens, and commerce, that life will carry on pretty much the same as it does now. There’s nothing really doctrinal that has been said along those lines, but I think Mormons kind of have the projection that God is just a perfectly benevolent and virtuous individual enmeshed in an endless web of beautiful human relationships.”

So in the Gospel Topics Essay on lds.org, I wanted to share two quick snippets. They said, “A cloud and harp are hardly a satisfying image for eternal joy, although most Christians would agree that inspired music can be of tiny foretaste of the joy of eternal salvation. Likewise, while few Latter-day Saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet, most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities.”

“Latter-day Saints tend to imagine exaltation through the lens of the sacred in mortal experience. They see the seeds of godhood in the joy of bearing and nurturing children and the intense love they feel for those children, in the impulse to reach out in compassionate service to others, in the moments they are caught off guard by the beauty and order of the universe, in the grounding feeling of making and keeping divine covenants. Church members imagine exaltation less through images of what they will get and more through the relationships they have now and how those relationships might be purified and elevated. As the scriptures teach, ‘That same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.'”

But in reality we really don’t know a lot about what it means to be like God and we won’t know until much after this life, the specifics. A few last quotes here on this on the FairMormon website addressing this topic quote, “The reality is that we seek eternal life, which we consider to be a life like that of our Father in Heaven. We consider our immediate task on Earth to learn, to understand, and obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, rather than speculate on what life might be like if we achieve exaltation.”

“Specifics about the creation of worlds and the ability to govern them upon achieving eternal life are not clarified in Latter-day Saint scripture.”

“Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:9 says, ‘Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.'”.

And one of my favorite quotes on this from Joseph Smith in the King Follett Discourse. “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top. And so it is with the principles of the gospel. You must begin with the first and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you pass through the veil, or die, before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. It will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.”

The last to talk about on this is part of the King Follett Discourse that Joseph said that, “God was once as one of us.” Lorenzo Snow expressed this famous couplet, “As man now is, God once was. As God now is, man may become.”

The Gospel Topics Essay mentions this, “Little has been revealed about the first half of this couplet and consequently little is taught. When asked about this topic, Church President Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter in 1997, ‘That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.'”

And to conclude on this, I wanted to share one last piece from the interview with Terryl Givens on that LDS Perspectives Podcast. When talking about the King Follett Discourse being an official doctrine he says, “It depends what you bring to it. It also depends on what you consider to constitute official doctrine, because the King Follett Discourse has never been canonized, so there is no canonical expression of that idea. Over the years, one can track the history of the use of the King Follett Discourse, and it has fallen in and out of church manuals, and it has fallen in and out of the official history of the church. There seems to be kind of a recurrent uncertainty as to exactly how tightly we are going to bind ourselves, I think especially to the first half of that couplet, that God himself was once human. Most of us forget that the fact that God was once human doesn’t mean necessarily that He began as a human and progressed, but that’s the usual reading that we give it. But we believe that Christ was divine before He was human. There are other possible ways of of going with that.”

Remember Christ also said that He did nothing but what He saw the Father do, which gives more possibilities and mysteries to it. So I hope this helps. There’s a tremendous amount of speculation that’s often done on this topic, and I wanted to share a lot of the background and history with it, and I hope you found the video helpful. Subscribe for more content.

Resources:

Gospel Topics Essays:

LDS.org Gospel Topics Essay – Becoming Like God https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-l…

Podcasts:

LDS Perspectives Podcast Episode #63 w/ Terryl Givens – Becoming Like God http://www.ldsperspectives.com/2017/1…

Websites:

FairMormon website on this topic: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mo…

Books:

Are Mormons Christians? by Stephen E. Robinson

August 28, 2019 By Jeff Roundy Leave a Comment

Welfare Program – Unlike Anything in the World! -Evidences

The welfare program of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church or LDS Church) is unique in all the world, in fact, unique in the history of the world! This video also includes clips of several nationally televised recognitions of the program as well as the changes (now ‘Self-Reliance Services’) that happened in 2012, which put the program on steroids!!

Speaker 1:
On this video in the Evidence series, I want to talk about the welfare program of the Church. This program, I don’t think there’s anything like it in the world. In fact, I don’t think there’s been anything like it in the history of the world.

Speaker 1:
And as I show you some clips from some national televised programs on the Church welfare program, I want you just to think about that. And then at the end of the video, I want to talk about some changes made in 2012 that have put the welfare program on steroids basically.

Speaker 1:
So first let’s start with a clip from Elder Glenn Rudd, who used to be the director of the welfare program.

Glenn Rudd:
I think I would not be exaggerating when I say there’s nothing on this earth comparable to the welfare program of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. People from all over the world have come here and have said this is the greatest thing they’ve seen in America.

Speaker 1:
Okay, now I’d like to share a couple of little quotes. So on the Church Newsroom website in September 2008, they talked about the welfare system, which was established by President Grant in 1936. President Grant said, “The system under under which the curse of idleness will be done away with, the evils or the dole abolished, and independence, thrift, and self-respect be once more established amongst our people. The aim of the Church is to help people help themselves.” This was during the Great Depression times.

Speaker 1:
The system endures today. It’s a two-way system. “It is not a handout. The bishop gives the needy individual or family assignments to work for the assistance they receive. The work might include cleaning a church building or using skills to help someone else in need. Fulfilling these assignments helps those receiving assistance to maintain their dignity and self-respect and provides a way for them to give back. Our system thrives on volunteerism. People come often to visit Welfare Square and ask how we get people to volunteer.”

Speaker 1:
And if you look on this infographic the Church put out a little bit about the program, once a month, church members fast for two consecutive meals and then donate the money from those meals to the Church to use in this program, in a welfare program. If you think about this, if this was done throughout the world, it would solve the hunger problems throughout the world.

Speaker 1:
And also, there’s volunteers. If you look on the screen at the bottom, each year, thousands of welfare service volunteers donate more than seven million hours to the Church’s food production and other welfare facilities.

Speaker 1:
If you look also on the screen here, the Church has 136 storehouses, 115 employment centers, 51 farms and ranches, 82 family service offices, 42 thrift stores with employment training opportunities, and 12 food production facilities.

Speaker 1:
It also provides disaster relief. If you look at the graph here, 132 emergency response projects in 60 countries, and they’re proactive in humanitarian assistance in 131 countries with more than 10 million beneficiaries around the world.

Speaker 1:
If you look at the screen here of the various areas where the Church also provides help to those in need, “Mobilizes for natural man-made disasters; provides humanitarian assistance with disaster relief, maternal and newborn care and immunization, wheelchair, clean water, and and vision support; improves agricultural and medical practices; organizes addiction recovery groups; supports employment training and opportunities; supervises welfare projects; and partners with governments, nonprofit organizations, and businesses.”

Speaker 1:
And if you … I wanted to share a scripture I love with relation to this. It’s in Isaiah 58. You think about what the Church is doing in this respect, Isaiah 58 talks about a true fast. He says, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring us the poor that are cast out to thy house? When thou seest the naked, that thou cover him, and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning.”

Speaker 1:
I wanted to show you a couple of clips here. Even, the welfare program has been studied by governments. Here’s a clip that was shown on PBS.

Speaker 3:
That concept has grown to helping not only members but non-members through humanitarian aid worldwide. And it’s apparently been done very well. This is Richard Humphreys, the manager of the Bishop’s Storehouse.

Richard Humphreys:
We’ve had the Department of Defense, we’ve had the Army, the Navy, the Marines, FEMA, they’ve all come out, and they say, “Wherever we go, we’ve been told, ‘Go see how the Mormons do it, because they’re always the first ones on the site.'”.

Speaker 3:
After Katrina smashed into New Orleans, Mormon convoys were the first to arrive with 450 truck loads.

Richard Humphreys:
As that hurricane was circling around in the Gulf of Mexico, we didn’t know where it was going to come inland. So we formed a big semi-circle that ran from Texas to South Carolina, and as soon as that hurricane hit New Orleans, those trucks were sent out, and they were there within hours.

Speaker 3:
Those trucks have a beehive on the side, a symbol very important to Mormonism. It is said to represent industry, harmony, order, frugality, and the sweet results of toil.

Speaker 3:
And these people are busy bees on the churches, farms, and ranches that are some of the largest in the US, in their canneries and processing plants. And the fruit of this labor is given away. Well, not exactly given. Those who can are required to work for it.

Speaker 1:
And here’s another video clip from Ted Koppel, the journalist, that talked about emergency preparedness. In fact, he wrote three chapters in his book on this about members of the Church.

Ted Koppel:
The truth of the matter is that no one, if we’re talking about a group of hundreds of thousands or millions of people, there is no group that is totally capable of dealing with a situation without electricity for a period of months at a time. But among those who have made preparations, I would say that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Mormons, as they’re known, are better prepared than any other group in the country.

Ted Koppel:
Mormon families are encouraged to have food supplies, water supplies of up to six months to a year, each family. There is an organization within the church that already exists that’s going to be more capable of dealing with that kind of a disaster than any other group that I’ve come across in the country.

Ted Koppel:
And for that reason, I devoted some three chapters in my book to talking about the Mormons, because I think they serve as an excellent example for people to make their own preparations. You’re not going to be able to duplicate it, but the Mormons are worth studying.

Speaker 1:
So let me share this quote now from the Presiding Bishop at the time, Bishop Burton, in April 2011 General Conference. This was the 75-year anniversary of the beginning of the welfare program.

Speaker 1:
He said, “75 years ago, a system devoted to the spiritual and temporal salvation of mankind rose from humble beginnings. Since that time, it has ennobled and blessed the lives of tens of millions of people throughout the world. The prophetic welfare plan is not merely an interesting footnote in the history of the Church, the principles upon which it is based define who we are as a people. It is the essence of who we are as individual disciples of our Savior and Exemplar, Jesus, the Christ. The work of caring for one another and being kind to the poor is a sanctifying work commanded of the Father, and divinely designed to bless, refine, and exalt his children.”

Speaker 1:
Now, I want to show you an amazing clip, four minutes of spiced-in pieces from a nationally televised program a few years ago, Rock Center with Brian Williams, on the welfare program of the Church, this segment.

Speaker 6:
… big way. This is a rare look into the Utah bishop’s central warehouse in Salt Lake City.

Speaker 7:
There’s sugar, there’s salt, there’s wheelchairs, there’s toilet paper.

Speaker 6:
A half million square-foot monument to the Mormon commitment to helping others.

Speaker 7:
This is crazy.

Speaker 6:
Rick Foster is a manager of the Church’s welfare operations.

Speaker 7:
It looks to me like there’s almost everything in here to sustain human life. Is that an exaggeration?

Speaker 8:
It is not at all. Nothing extravagant, but basic commodities that you’d find in any grocery store.

Speaker 7:
This would make the people from Costco jealous I think. It almost seems endless.

Speaker 6:
And almost everything in here was produced by the Church for charity, not for profit. The Mormon industrial complex was created to perpetuate self-reliance.

Speaker 8:
We grow a lot of our products on farms, raise cattle on ranches, fruit in our orchards.

Speaker 6:
There’s enough food and supplies here to support the Church’s welfare efforts for an entire year, and to attend to natural disasters around the world.

Speaker 7:
This is mind-boggling.

Speaker 6:
The peaches and turkey chunks from this warehouse are trucked to 110 regional storehouses around the country. Not far from the Bishop’s Storehouse is a place called Welfare Square, where Mormon volunteers turn Mormon milk into Mormon cheese.

Speaker 9:
Do you like it?

Speaker 7:
Yeah, it’s really good.

Speaker 9:
Yeah, we can probably get you a block. We’ll put…

Speaker 6:
It’s a veritable showplace of Mormon generosity, even dripping in Mormon honey.

Speaker 7:
Is it hot?

Speaker 10:
Yes.

Speaker 6:
And that Mormon honey will taste great on this fresh-baked Mormon bread. Mormon volunteer Louise Oldroid said this to me, “Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could solve the world’s problems with a loaf of bread?” Indeed.

Speaker 6:
And to receive a loaf of bread and more, all a needy Mormon has to do is ask. Local bishops like Kirk Green sign off on a form which is even better than cash.

Speaker 11:
There’s tuna, beef stew, there’s some meats.

Speaker 7:
There’s a list?

Speaker 11:
Yeah. Yeah, we actually … There’s actually a Bishop’s Order Form, which is like a shopping list. And it’s not fancy, but there’s all the basics that you can do really well with. And a few nice things. I noticed there’s ice cream on this one.

Speaker 6:
No money changes hands here, or in any of the 142 stores like it around the world.

Speaker 12:
If I fall, there’s somebody to help.

Speaker 7:
There is a significant safety net.

Speaker 12:
Yes. For me that’s a really comforting thing.

Speaker 13:
Hello there. Good to see you.

Speaker 6:
Comforting volunteers like Sue and Bob Moore try to remove any stigma of having to make a trip here.

Speaker 13:
Go right in here, two hamburger patties.

Speaker 13:
We try and make them feel very welcome. Some people come and it could be the worst day of their life. They’re really down. They’ve lost their job. Their children are hungry.

Speaker 7:
I’ve done nothing but meet volunteers all day today. And they all say the same thing.

Speaker 13:
Oh, yeah. But that’s what we’re taught. This is what the Savior would want us to do.

Speaker 6:
As we said, you can’t pay for the items in the store, but you can do volunteer work in exchange.

Speaker 14:
We don’t just give them food. We put them to work. Life isn’t about getting something for nothing.

Speaker 6:
And it’s not just for Mormons, but you do have to meet with a bishop first.

Speaker 8:
We’ll help anyone at any time, as long as we’re able to do so and have those resources available to do so.

Speaker 7:
And you don’t sit there saying, “I’ll help you, just so long as you convert.”.

Speaker 8:
Absolutely not. There’s no tie to that whatsoever.

Speaker 6:
Welfare director Rick Foster says the goal is to get people back on their feet as quickly as possible. To that end, there are now 327 Mormon employment offices around the world. And if you need clothing, there are thrift stores too, and a lot more we haven’t shown you. Mormons really do believe they are their brother’s keeper.

Speaker 11:
It’s a commitment and a belief to follow Christ in the way that He lived His life. And one of the biggest ways He lived His life was taking care of the poor, those who were less fortunate, those who didn’t have all the breaks in life.

Speaker 1:
Okay, so now I want to talk about what’s happened since. In 2001, the Church made a huge step forward in viewing the welfare program, a self-reliance approach. You heard of give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day, teach him how to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime. President Hinckley brought about the Perpetual Education Fund at this time in 2001, and used this, quote, as a launch pad for it. And it’s helped many, many people.

Speaker 1:
Since then, in fact, this article in Deseret News in 2016 said, “As of that time, 83,260 members of the church had received loans …” and this is member funded, “for vocational or higher education, 90% find jobs upon graduation, and a significant portion of local church leaders and international congregations now come from the ranks of these PEF graduates.”.

Speaker 1:
But what ended up happening is the need for training and skills for members of all ages was too vast. More than two-thirds of church members outside of the United States and Canada live in places where, even with education and training, jobs are scarce. So in 2012, after a comprehensive review of the Perpetual Education Fund, President Thomas S. Monson authorized a dramatic expansion, this is on steroids, of his predecessor’s concepts by combining it with other efforts under the title Self-Reliance Services. We’ve had exponential growth from there. There are four big programs that were put into place. They are 12-week courses, and they are taught by volunteers at the local level. It’s run by the local church leaders.

Speaker 1:
And the results have been astounding. Just to give you some data, some numbers, if you look on the screen here, this was on LDS.org, an article in August of 2018: “Elder Michael Ringwood, a General Authority Seventy and executive director of the Church’s Self-Reliance Services, said that since they started keeping records in 2015, the four programs of Personal Finances, Find a Job, Education for Better Work, and Start and Grow a Business have helped more than 670,000 people worldwide.”

Speaker 1:
Now, the Perpetual Education Fund is wrapped into this, the education section, also Pathways Worldwide, which is a way for people to get actually a degree from a church-sponsored school at deeply discounted tuition rates tiered to the country that you live in, are parts of this program.

Speaker 1:
And then Elder Ringwood continues: “To me, this is one of the greatest things I have ever seen the church do. One of the blessings is for me to see people across the world willing to help each other, willing to minister to each other in a way that allows people to provide for themselves. It allows people to reach a different spiritual level in their relationship with Heavenly Father and the Savior. It helps relieve burdens on bishops.”

Speaker 1:
And in fact, many bishops have actually reported a significant drop-off in the number of people coming to them for welfare needs. And they’ve said that program has just been beautiful in that respect. And if you think about those resources now, the giving is not stopping by the members of the Church, those will be used even more so for humanitarian efforts and for preparedness efforts.

Speaker 1:
Look at some of these numbers. Deseret News put out a graphic on some of these that … Studying six months after the end of a course, and so this January 2016 through June 2018, this study, “61% started or grew their own business, 47% got a new or better job, 52% started the new school or education program, 52% of those who didn’t have a budget before attending the course now have and use one.”

Speaker 1:
Some other numbers, “41% improved their ability to provide for the necessities of life for themselves and their families, 61% improved their ability to work directly with the Lord to solve their own problems, 40% increased their income, 38% increased their savings, 59% decreased their outstanding consumer debt.”

Speaker 1:
I want to finish though with this amazing clip in Utah that KSL News did called Pathways Out Of Poverty. And they interviewed Bishop Caussé, the Presiding Bishop of the Church today, and there’s a two-minute clip I want to just share with you about this new self-reliance program. Like I said, welfare on steroids. And it’s phenomenal.

Speaker 1:
I want to close the video with that. Ponder about, like I said at the beginning, has this ever been done in the history of the world? Hope you enjoy.

Speaker 15:
So this is a self-reliance program, but it’s also a very spiritually based program as well.

Speaker 16:
When we think of self-reliance, it’s not about only self, relying on self, it’s about relying on the Lord. It is about recognizing that the Lord is in our lives, that we are dependent on Him. And so He will bless us after all we can do. And there’s a lot we can do.

Speaker 15:
Is it fair to say that we could see things happening in countries … You feel as an individual that there’s just nothing you can do to help the situation in Africa, or in Mexico. And yet, you’re seeing them transform through initiatives like this that are making widespread differences.

Speaker 16:
Well, it’s overwhelming when you see the poverty that exists in so many countries in the world. So we are not saying that we are going to change all of this, but each person that is changed is making a big difference in their community. So as people are changed, families are changed. And as families change, the whole community benefits from it.

Speaker 16:
So it’s a vision, but I believe that it is going to add a lot. We need to look at this initiative as a long-term gospel initiative, that it will affect generations to come forever.

Speaker 15:
When you talk about how the Church will look different because of this program, indeed entire communities and maybe even countries could look different if people were able to sustain themselves.

Speaker 16:
This is impacting the whole community. And I see the members of the Church as being the lights in their own countries and showing the way.

Speaker 16:
Actually, I think most governments would be interested to know what the Church is doing. They would be grateful for what the Church is doing, because changing lives for the better in the long term, a conversion to the spiritual principles of self-reliance is … at the end, eventually this is what is going to bless their country.

Resources:

Articles:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/since…

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/8…

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2184…

https://thirdhour.org/blog/buzz/lds-n…

https://www.economist.com/united-stat…

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014…

Videos:

Rock Center with Brian Williams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow6mn…

KSL – Pathway out of Poverty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6UQx…

Ted Kopell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kwuw…

Church produced video on Welfare Program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StDx3…

PBS TV show Religion & Ethics Newsweekly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBZWe…

August 28, 2019 By Jeff Roundy Leave a Comment

Defending Your Faith: Using Tools of the Times

I was invited to present on a Facebook Live broadcast on Hi-5 Live on 1/16/19. This video is a recording of the broadcast, which was titled ‘Defending Your Faith: Using Tools of the Times”

My name is Jeff Roundy, from North Salt Lake, Utah and I was invited to speak on Hi Five Live from Mike White. He’s a friend of my daughter, Rachel Roundy, and Rachel’s watching this from Hawaii right now. She’s at BYU Hawaii. Thanks Rachel, and thanks Mike for inviting me on. He heard about my YouTube channel, Latter-Day Saints Q&A, and thought it would be great to have me on to talk a little bit about the channel, but also what I’m doing and why I’m on there. So I want to start a little bit about what inspired me to do this. It was a conference that I went to, the FairMormon Conference. I go to it each year. If you’re not familiar with FairMormon, they’re defenders of the faith, foundation for apologetic information and research. Apologetics is apology, a Greek word for defense, defense of the faith.

And so at this conference this year, in fact, I would suggest to, if you can go watch Elder Kevin Pearson of the Seventy. First time we’ve had a general authority speak there. Very powerful message. He called it an imperative and sacred duty that we have and really touched me specifically what he challenged us to consider and look at doing, led to my YouTube channel.

So if I could share a couple of things from Elder Pearson and he said, “Don’t wait for the Church to do everything on all of this. And technology is a key to sharing the gospel and particularly going forward. The Church can’t do it all. We need independent voices.” And he said, “70% of the world actually does not have missionaries today.” And so technology is going to be a key. 50% of those people have the internet, two thirds of them have cell phones or mobile phones. And so technology is going to be a really big key to sharing the gospel. But there’s also a lot of miscommunications online and misrepresentations.

He actually shared this scripture, D&C 123:11-12 and think about this today, right now. This was 1839. “It is an imperative duty that we owe to all the rising generation and to all the pure in heart, for there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.”

Think about the internet today. You could say that statement on steroids. So two quotes I wanted to share from Elder Pearson from this, and then I’ll tell you about how this led to the YouTube channel and what I’m doing. So he said, “It is essential that members create and promote online content that effectively communicates what the Church believes in clear, authentic, and engaging ways, especially on some of the most prevalent search topics. Access to understandable answers to critical questions and concerns that can help correct misunderstandings about the Church and remove stumbling blocks to faith. It can also level the playing field for the sincere truth-seeker to find and recognize truth in a world increasingly hostile to faith.”

He also said, “The internet has become the most powerful and dominant source for information on virtually any topic or question. The inherent problem with this reality is that many inaccuracies come from limited experience, understanding, or viewpoints and even due to an intentional desire to mislead or misrepresent.” I’ve seen this significantly. “The internet can either lead individuals to the truth, or away from it. This is where independent organizations like FairMormon and individuals make a significant contribution. Church-produced content might appear more polished and professional, but yours will be viewed as more authentic because what you say comes with your personal experience and unique perspective. It enlivens content produced by the Church. There are thoughtful, faithful answers to virtually every question, issue, and concern being raised by critics and skeptics of the Church.”

Also, Matt Grow. He actually said at the Face-to-Face when they launched the book Saints from the Nauvoo Temple with Elder Cook, Matt Grow from the Church History Department said, “We do live in a new reality of the information age when challenging information on church history can appear on the social media feeds of members all around the world. So we have a heightened responsibility now to help members find good answers to their questions within the household of faith.”

So just tell you then how I went about doing this YouTube channel. Again, it’s called Latter-Day Saints Q&A and in my bio you can see the link to it. Please go check it out and subscribe if you’d like to have it. It might be a great library of resources to use for the future. But basically, after hearing this session, my wife and I were at lunch and I have felt this passion for these topics and defending the faith for 30 plus years. Studied the heck out of all these topics. I served a mission in the Bible Belt. That’s where it started. The passion started then in defending the faith.

So Elder Pearson talked a lot about YouTube too as a great search engine, particularly for the young people. So I thought, you know, I’m going to use YouTube. I’m going to do a YouTube channel and put out videos there and do it in a way that I could really do a cliff notes type of fashion. People, a lot of times they just want maybe the basics. What are the critics saying about a certain topic? And what are the answers? In maybe 10 or 15 minutes. Keep it short. But then I give a ton of resources so you can go really deep if you want. My favorite resources on any of the topics. Some examples of some of the videos we… I’ve got about I think approaching 30 videos now. I’m going to keep going until I’ve covered really anything and everything that I can think of in these categories.

But some of the examples: Kirtland Safety Society – Dispelling the Myths; Church Finances – Disconcerting or Miraculous?; Clarifications – Mountain Meadows Massacre; Priesthood & Temple Ban – How Did This Happen? So that’s just a couple of the videos, just to give you some examples and some flavors on there.

So what I also wanted to do is as I do these, I wanted to produce videos also talking about the powerful evidences of the Restoration and what I had resounding in my head was a quote from Elder Holland at BYU at a conference at BYU in August of 2017.

He said, “My testimony to you tonight is that the gospel is infallibly true and that a variety of infallible proofs supporting that assertion will continue to come until Jesus descends as the ultimate infallible truth of all. Our testimonies aren’t dependent on evidence. We still need that spiritual confirmation in the heart, but not to seek for and not to acknowledge intellectual, documentable support for our belief when it is available is to needlessly limit an otherwise incomparably strong, theological position. We ought to be more assertive then we sometimes are in defending our testimony of truth.”

We’ve heard some of that recently. You might recall about articulating our faith more and being aware of some of these things. I’ve had experiences with people with these videos saying, “Thank you.” This has helped them to articulate or to share with others who might have concerns or challenges or to understand what it is they’re going. I had a grandfather who said, “I had a grandson on a mission. He was struggling with some of these things and he didn’t have the time to really go deep on this. He wanted the reader’s digest summary of many of these things and so this was perfect.”

I had another friend that shared the church finances video with a friend of theirs who was struggling with that specific topic and said, “This video is exactly what they needed.” I think there’s a helpful place for it. Now I do want to mention what I feel like, if you look at the focus of the Church just recently seems to be on elevating our gospel learning and our focus. Think about the two hour church. So we’re coming home now to study the gospel more in the home, and if you think about the very first lesson of the new curriculum, it was we are responsible for our own learning. I thought that was a wonderful thing to see. That’s the focus right now, and I mentioned… I think I put it in the video earlier, maybe I didn’t.

But 58% of high school graduates have not read another book since they’ve graduated, 42% of college graduates. This was a recent survey, so people really are not studying a lot of things, including religious things. One of my favorite quotes is from Elder Hanks. He says, “No one knows anything about Christ’s work simply by being born a member of the Church. And often he knows little about it after years of unmotivated exposure and meetings or classes. He must learn, and learning involves self-investment and effort. The gospel should be studied as carefully as any science. The literature of the Church must be acquired and read. Our learning should be increased in our spare time, day by day. Then as we put the gospel truth to work in daily life, we will never find it wanting. We will be literate in the most important field of knowledge in the universe.”.

I love that quote there. I love… Who was it? It was John A. Widtsoe that had a formula. When he went to Harvard, he went deep in his studies, but he said, “I’m going to study the Gospel 50% of the time and 50% of the time I’m going to study chemistry and the rest of the subjects.” A great formula to think of to use. And you think about Elder Renlund, Sister Renlund, they just had the worldwide devotional with the young adults of the Church last Sunday. It was on faith and doubt and they talked about seeking answers to questions and seeking and really going deep and studying, spending time and trying to learn, but from faithful, trustworthy sources. And so that’s really a key thing.

I had an experience the other day why when I did the Kinderhook Plates video. I couldn’t believe it. So I’d like to try and see what’s out there whenever I’m doing these videos. And I will tell you that on YouTube it’s probably ten to one negative to positive. We need so much more on the positive. But on this Kinderhook plates, I was watching this video and from the name of the YouTube Channel, it sounded like it was a Latter-Day Saint, not an anti. They had this beautiful, religious music playing in the background, soft voice. They were going through factual information. I thought, “This is kind of interesting.”.

Then towards the end there were some blatant falsehoods that I knew were absolutely wrong and led to a completely false outcome to the entire video. But if you didn’t know a lot of those details you could easily have been deceived by watching that video. So it’s a crazy time, crazy world.

So some of the tools also of the times, I would say, to give you some of my top and favorite recommendations, just websites, FairMormon, tops. You can’t touch it. There’s nothing else out there like it. It’s a composite of all answers essentially, and they go deep. All these subtopics, any question you have has been answered on FairMormon to the 10th degree all the way down. So lots of great resources and material. That is the best out there, I think, online. Elder Pearson put a big shout out for that too in his talk and he, in fact he mentioned four at the end in the Q&A. That was big one. The Interpreter Foundation is fantastic. Book of Mormon Central is fantastic and then the More Good Foundation. Those would be the ones I would recommend for on the websites.

Now podcasts, I would actually say the big three that I mentioned. All of those have great podcasts. Love them. They’re fantastic. My all time favorite podcasts I’ll actually say is the LDS Perspectives podcast. I love that. Let’s see. The BYU Maxwell Institute is fantastic. Terryl Givens is fantastic.

Now I should’ve started with this. The Church has got these phenomenal resources now that they have put out and I absolutely love what Matt Grow said about the… So you think about Saints, the Gospel Topics Essays, and the Joseph Smith Papers, which is unbelievable. As he talked about those three sources, he said, “These confront many of these challenging doctrinal historical questions.” He says, “The message to me of this openness is that the history of the Church can withstand scrutiny. We don’t need to be afraid of it. It is inspiring. Sometimes we will have questions, but there are good answers. We just need to study.”

Okay. Now, books. I do have five books that I just want to quickly show you. These are my favorites on this. This is in my top 10. This just came out a few months ago. Maybe even less. Faith Is Not Blind from the Hafens. Elder Hafen, Sister Hafen. Fantastic book. I think I bought a dozen of these, and I was handing them out to lots of people. Fantastic.

All right, Michael Ash. This is a composite of a ton of information and research, Shaken Faith Syndrome. Love this book. A Reason For Faith, Laura Harris Hales. She did a great a group of… These are scholars writing each of the different chapters on lots of different topics. This is fantastic. Planted: Belief and Belonging in an Age of Doubt. This is a great one. Many of these are are fairly new books. Shaken Faith’s been out for… This is the new edition, but it’s been out I think five years. No Weapon Shall Prosper, Robert Millet, New Light on Sensitive Issues. This is a great, great one too. That’s been out for a little while.

And then YouTube channels. You know there isn’t a lot of great stuff, like I mentioned, but there is Hi Five Live videos which are awesome, of course. There’s the LDS Church History. They have some great videos out. The big three, so FairMormon, Interpreter Foundation, Book of Mormon Central. Those would certainly be the tops out there. And then Saints Unscripted. It used to be called Three Mormons. They’ve got a lot of great stuff too. What Mormons Believe, that was somebody else that did something like eight years ago and they’ve got lots of cool little… They’re just two to three minute videos, but they don’t go real deep. But it’s, you know, again, it’s more good stuff out there.

So go check the YouTube channel out. Like I said, it’s called Latter-Day Saints Q&A or the URL we just set up. It’s YouTube.com/LatterDaySaintsQA. That’s another way you can go to it. Remember, you do not need to have all this stuff down. The thing I would say is know what’s out there. Know what resources are out there, so you can point people to different things. Because a lot of times they just need to… One of my favorite quote is… Austin Farrer. I didn’t bring it in. But, “It’s good to have good arguments for these things and helps create a climate where belief can flourish.” It’s one of my favorite sayings. So I do want to thank Hi Five again. These guys are doing what I’m talking about. It’s awesome. So thanks again. Thanks Mike White for letting me come on today. And if you add a question on there, I’ll get back to you as I go through. So thanks. It’s been a delight to be with you guys.

Resources:

Hi Five Live’s Page https://www.facebook.com/HiFiveLive/

Jeff Roundy

Resources:

Resources:

Resources:

Resources:

Resources:

Resources:

Let's Be Friends!